The Lives They're Living

Welcome to the Lives they're Living.

I'm your host, Ben Yakota.

The podcast is about people who
have done amazing things and who, at

this point in their life are flying
a little bit more under the radar

than they really deserve to be.

my guest today is Tim Page, who
I've been reading for many years

and only recently had the pleasure
of meeting and he's exactly.

The way I pictured him from
reading him, which is very smart

and very genial and a good person.

He has been in his career, the chief
classical music critic for the Washington

Post and New York News Day, and a regular
contributor to the New York Times, which

is where I first encountered his byline.

He won the poet or prize for
criticism for his work at the Post.

He's a professor emeritus
of Musicology at USC.

His many books include the Glenn Gould
Reader, Dawn Powell, a biography.

, A memoir called Parallel Play and
four books in the Library of America.

Imprint on Don Powell and Virgil Thompson.

Now I have to say, Tim sent me a two
sentence biography at which I expanded

and I could go on for even longer.

But let me just say a couple
of other things about him.

, He grew up in stores Connecticut,
whereas a kid, he was the subject

of a celebrated short documentary
film A Day with Timmy Page.

He has been a cocktail pianist.

He played keyboards and composed for his
own rock band, Dover Beach, and he served

as the host of New, old and unexpected,
a daily program on W-N-Y-C-F-M Radio.

Tim Page.

Welcome to the lives they're living.

It is such a pleasure to see you again.

However, remotely and I, I,
I return the compliments.

Our subject today is the remarkable
songwriter performer, uh, arranger,

musical personage, Stephen Merrit.

And I've been aware of him for some
time, but I learned a lot more about

him by reading your article about him
in the Washington Post in, in 2000.

And let me just say, , we're talking on a
day when you're getting a lot of messages

from your former post colleagues about
the news that as the New York Times said.

Its coverage and its staff is being
decimated, , which is not the subject

for this podcast, but reading your
article, I, I was struck among other

things that there was a time, not that
long ago when newspapers would publish.

In depth, lengthy, , well considered
profile of an interesting person.

It's, it brought me back to another
time, and it wasn't that long ago.

What's happening at the post is terrible.

, I, from what I understand,
it's going to be a huge layoff.

And I've written some advanced
obituaries for them, and I'm going

to try my damnedest to buy them back.

Yeah.

I don't trust anything they will
do with my work at this point,

and I'm gonna make that known.

Yeah.

Well this was a different time.

, God bless Catherine Graham.

, I read it in, in a, on the ProQuest,
, database, and it was the actual facsimile

of the page, so you could see just,
it went from one page to another, and

there, there were other similar articles
in the same section, the same day,

and so many ads from movies Wolf trap.

It hit me how things have
changed, not for the.

Not for the good in, in
our field, , of journalism.

But in any case, your piece, , was
entitled 69 Love Songs, and it was about,

, this . release that Steven Merritt
and the Magnetic Fields had recently

come out with, which you described
as an encyclopedic, flabbergasting,

ambitious opera length set of three CDs.

So maybe we can start with,
with there, with that piece,

which is, , rather remarkable.

When people, , refer to.

Merit and magnetic fields, that's
the first thing they usually mention.

So you can tell.

Can you tell us a little bit more about
him, the project and 69 Love songs,

and where that stood in his career?

I'd be delighted to talk about that.

. Somebody, and I don't remember now, told
me it was probably Richard Harrington,

the former, , pop critic for the
Washington Post who told me about this

recording and I bought myself a copy
and I listened and I was just dazzled.

It was just such an amazing.

Display of virtuosity, he
touches on electronic music,

country music, rock of all sorts,
experimental music, just on and on.

And I just thought, this is a work of
genius and I want to get to talk to this

guy and I wanna write about this album.

And I was a little anxious
about it, um because.

Various papers had referred to him as
snarly, and you know, just the entire

opposite of the person that I actually,
um, you know, that I talked to.

, I found him thoughtful,
, knowledgeable, very self-aware.

, And, uh, a real scholar of American song.

, And, , so I spent a few days with
him and we, we became friends.

'cause I figured I was probably
not gonna write about magnetic.

Fields again after this.

It was about 3000 words, as I remember.

Right.

They were fine with that back then,
and I was told, and I'm not positive

of this, but I was told it was the
first non rock magazine piece on them,

and certainly the largest piece that
had ever been written about them.

, And I'm still proud of it to this day
and I'm still friendly with Steven.

He's, he's a very thoughtful man and the
woman who sort of takes care of him and

is also their drummer and also sings a
lot of the song, Claudia Gon has been one

of my great friends since those days too.

It, it is, uh.

Wonderful piece.

And lemme just quote another line from it.

And you're describing his songwriting.

, Dazzling exercise in songwriting,
craft songs, exulted in

despairing, hilarious and bleak.

Coolly dismissive and
achingly confessional.

I sophisticated and on the knees pleading,
which in my little, , dipping into his

work is, is really an app description.

You mentioned his, , immersion in,
in American Song and the songwriting

craft reading some of his quotes, his
eclectic influences are really striking.

He, he once said, I learned to write songs
almost exclusively by listening to Abba.

The, the Swedish group, which is sometimes
maligned also is mentioned, , Steven

Sondheim, Phil Spector, and the Ramones.

And when I read that, it makes sense.

You, you hear, , some of those things.

The word place, certainly, I
guess a certain simplicity in,

in the music, would you say.

I think some of his songs are are simple.

Some of them are Sondheim,
like in their complications.

, And I can see the Abba too.

, Abba was considered very, very
uncool back in 1999 and 2000.

Thanks to Steven and thanks to a
lot of other people who realize that

they're not teenagers anymore and
they don't have to be snooty about.

Who is representing their
lifestyle all the time.

I've come to love, uh, some
of the songs by Abbott.

And I actually recorded an interview
in the same studio they used for

a guitar album a few years ago.

Long story.

They have $100,000
microphones in that studio.

That was spectacular.

Basically Steven can do anything
he, he wants, uh, and does so.

I like his rock and roll a lot.

So I thought we might start with
a, , a piece that I particularly like

so what's the name of it?

The name of the song is The
Death of Ferdinand de Soer.

And if you don't know who Ferdinand
de Soer is, you're not alone.

And I'll tell you about him when we
finish with the song, which I think

is brilliant, catchy, and all the
things that Steven is at his best.

. No understanding.

Just a great composer
and not a violent man.

Composure and.

. Now, um, I'm glad you said the name De
Soer 'cause I would've said this o Sure.

Which.

Really would've ruined some
of those brilliant rhymes.

Uh, well, he, he says on love,
he said, I'm not so sure.

And there's a kosher in there.

It, it harks back to Cole
Porter, Lorenz Hart, some of the

classic lyricists of that era.

Yes, absolutely.

And Ferdinand de Soer.

Wrote about language in Switzerland some
100 years ago, and he is very cool among.

Some cool people who are fascinated by
language, but he's hardly a household

name and I think it's amazing that
he managed to work in this obscure

Swiss linguist, , who says he's
not so sure he knows what love is.

And then he is shot by Steven Merritt.

, And he shoots him in the name
of Holland Dozier or Holland.

, Which not only rhymes, but I would
guess that a lot of people who know

De Soer is, don't know Holland,
Dozier Holland are, and vice versa.

And I can't think of anyone who
could have worked them into the same

song so brilliantly, no question.

But that raises the next question.

So he's got these esoteric lyrics that.

That you love and I love some not
unlimited number of people would

love, , and he is putting it out
there in the commercial marketplace.

So tell me a little bit about
his place in that marketplace.

Probably he's, he's had to
deal with that category of,

. Not a cult favorite, but, but, uh,
someone with a small group of listeners,

but he's, he's gone beyond that.

So how has he, how has
he managed that issue?

Well, you know, it's interesting
because, , if, if you look back on some

of the Beatles songs and some of Dylan's
songs, I don't know exactly what they're

about and they haven't bothered me.

You know, I listened to Sad
Eyed Lady of the Lowlands.

Yeah, yeah.

Still mystifies me.

But, . He had his biggest hit with
a song that was used in a film.

Peter Gabriel used a very sardonic
song called The Book of Love,

which Gabriel did as a very.

, I don't wanna put him down here, but
it's done in a very sort of soupy and

romantic way, which is the opposite of
what seems to me, Steven's intention,

which is to write a funny, bleak,
interesting song and, um, that.

Became a hit because it was in a movie.

And even though it doesn't have
much to do with Steven's original

version, as I understand it,
that's still their biggest hit.

, But they've written a lot of
songs that should be hits.

The record business is
so strange these days.

, Glenn Gould had the idea that concerts
would die away, but it's now in concerts

that groups make their most money.

So he's on the road a lot

he's very, very much admired among
a lot of people in the music world.

So he has.

Clearly carved out a, a living
and a niche for himself, mostly

through live performances.

And I just checked out, , his, his
webpage, which is not surprisingly a

little quirky, and he is, I believe,
in the middle of a international

tour with magnetic fields and a lot
of, you know, good sized venues.

So he's.

He's making it.

And, and by the way, I just looked it up.

, You mentioned that the Book of Love was in
a film, it was in a romantic comedy from

2004 called Shall We Dance, which Aha.

Well, I never heard of it.

Never saw it.

Only know the piece because I'm interested
in Steven and the group and, you know, uh,

it brought them a good amount of money.

You know, he won't be Beyonce or
Taylor Swift anytime soon, although.

Who the hell knows, you know,
he is so terribly catchy.

, But I, I doubt it's going to be
in that level anytime too soon.

. , He's catchy.

He's prolific and he's got a work ethic
that is admirable in terms of his.

Productivity, output and quality.

It's remarkable.

You know, you mentioned said I lady
the lowlands, and I just have to

say that I've, I have a, a long time
interest in, in meta or self-referential

songs, which is one reason why I
like Stephen Mary, but Dylan in a

later song called Sarah has a line.

Staying up for days in the Chelsea
hotel writing, sad eyed lady of the

lowlands to you, which is great.

And I, I believe that he
wrote it for Joan Baez.

It seems to fit.

But, , they rock critic Lester Bangs when
he wrote a withering review of desire for.

The magazine cream called
that, , complete nonsense.

And he said, as he understood it, he
wrote it very, very quickly, albeit in

the Chelsea Hotel speeding his brains out.

So who's to know?

And you know, Bob Dylan.

Less than any of us is
subject to fact checking.

Yes, he, he is, he is a poet and,
uh, operates by different rules.

So, backing up a little bit, um, reading
a bit about Stephen Merritt's life,

and first of all, I want to say that
copy editors, , probably have some

bad dreams about him because of the
spelling of his first name, which is.

Not S-T-E-V-E-N or
S-T-E-P-H-E-N, but S-T-E-P-H-I-N.

And there's a story
about that on Wikipedia.

And we could find out
if this is true or not.

Um, by doing our own fact
checking, it said that as a kid,

he developed a system and I identify
with this 'cause I did the same thing of

giving a different name when you filled
out subscriptions and so forth to track

where the mailing came from or if your
name had been sold . And so the, he was.

S-T-E-P-H-E-N was his given name,
I believe, and changed it to the I

for this sort of junk mail purposes
and decided that he liked it.

Well, that makes sense.

And you know, he has done something,
which I think somebody in the music

world would tell him not to do, is that
he has at least four different bands.

So if you love a Stephen Merrit song.

And I have one that we may or may
not play called Memories of Love.

It was actually done for a group called
The Gothic Archies, and he also has

a group called The Six, and he has
a group called Future Bible Heroes.

And actually that might be the one he did.

Memories of love for.

But in any event, so he's a, he's a
confusing guy that way, but it also

makes you listen to him and learn
and see what he does in other fields.

I'm.

Awfully proud of the fact
that he's being recognized.

Let's give a listen to Memories of
Love right now and then we could talk

a little bit about it afterwards.

When you,

the bird starts to shake.

Your pajama

are like,

are

some are

of love.

Every teenage crush.

Every little mile

come to make you blush

every

sort

what you said to

what you dream.

Are.

You say, that's not funny,

just go away

soon.

Down knee,

some.

Memories of love

are pretty rough

memories of love.

Now that's a really strange song
and it's Steven sing it himself.

And it is a grim.

, Look at love.

Good, good times, bad times.

I mean, if I were going to try to
combine all the different moods on

69 love songs into one song, that
would probably be the one I chose.

And it's, it's all kinds of love.

It's.

It's mostly kind of a nightmare, but
you know, there are moments where he

talks about good times in love affairs.

The lyrics are just terrific.

And there's a terrific YouTube
video that somebody made.

With all sorts of creepy old cartoons
and pictures of Marilyn Monroe

and I recommend it, uh, to you.

If you type in memories of
Love, you will get this no need.

You could just go to the show notes for
this episode , meredith's been quoted on

a number of occasions, I think including
your piece, but he says this a lot that

he doesn't write autobiographical songs.

It's that idea of the craft
rather than the confessional.

Speaking of, of Dylan, and that
seems true in some cases, but in

some cases not necessarily true.

Well, he adds that.

Certainly I've experienced some
of these moods, but you could

say that about anybody over 16
or 18 or something like that.

Right?

So, so yeah, they aren't
exactly confessional, but.

He has, and I mean, nothing sexual here.

He has been around and he has lived a
life and he's been hurt and he's been

ecstatic and he manages to sort of
get them all into memories of love.

Now, I should say, I think it's
interesting and significant that he's

gay and, , some of his songs, you know,
have this sort of, I, I, I think of it

as a kinda matter of fact, gay context,
which I found rather refreshing and

interesting, but I realize not something
you hear that much in pop music.

What do you, what do you think about that?

Well, I mean, there are a few songs
that have made it to the big time

that are about being gay, but uh,
none of Steven's songs, , about

being gay have made it there.

And I mean, he just writes any song
that he feels like, if he wanted to

write a quote unquote heterosexual song.

He would, you know, and he would
do a, a very good job on it.

And most, most of his songs
are, are multipurpose.

Right, right.

I, I definitely have
that impression as well.

, Speaking of which, I mentioned to you
earlier that my introduction to him

came when I was driving around my very
hip, then middle school age daughter,

and she had a mixtape with several
of his songs, including this one that

I'm gonna play for you right now and,
and, and get your reaction to it.

That, that has, if, if you read the
lyrics carefully as I just did, it

does have a, a gay context, but.

You don't necessarily
even have to notice that.

So, so here we go.

So you quote, love unquote me will
stranger things have come to be.

But let's agree to disagree
because I don't believe you.

I don't believe.

Me, I'm not, not cute.

It's truth or false is because
is not your strong suit and I

don't believe.

Once was and all

they were like, because I,

I had a dream.

And you in.

The blue of your was infinite.

You seemed to be in love
with me, which isn't very.

They and I start crying halfway through,
but nothing you say is true, so I

don't believe

you may.

Char and say, I delightful.

And But you say that to everyone?

Well, I don't,

I don't believe

so.

Brilliant.

You think, I just don't understand, but I.

To me, you know, it's, , it's
a song about punctuation.

My god.

It's, it's opening up so
you quote love unquote me.

, And then later on, , there's a
whole verse about ampersands.

Uh, so you're brilliant, gorgeous, and.

And in the lyrics, the,
and is in the ampersand.

And then the next words are
ampersand after ampersand.

That speaks to me.

. It, it should be remembered
that this album came out after.

I had written about Steven Uhhuh and,
and it's, the album is called I, and

so all the songs on that album are in
some ways autobiographical, as I recall.

Yeah.

And they start with the word I
I think each song that's, yeah.

He, he likes these sort of, . Prompts.

He loves that stuff.

One of his albums is called Distortion
and every one of the songs is distorted.

I, I, I love it.

. He's been quoted as saying that
his mother, and let me get the

exact, , wording here, was,

. Itinerant Buddhist hippie teacher.

So he lived in different
places, didn't meet his father

until, until he was an adult.

, An unconventional upbringing.

Very definitely.

There's a wonderful story about his
mother taking him to a Jefferson

Airplane concert in, , California.

And he was scared to death because like
three or four or something like that.

And Grace Slick got up to the
microphone and she was talking about

Vietnam, but she was waving her arm
out of the audience and she said

they're killing children over there.

And apparently it caused
Steven a complete.

Panic meltdown, having
no idea what she meant.

, let's talk about, uh, one more Steven
Merritt song, A Sleeping Dreaming.

What, what do we need to know
about that before we take a listen?

Well, it's a very interesting song in
a lot of ways, and it is accompanied

by accordion, which is not often played
and even less likely, played by one of

Steven's friends and a friend of mine too.

Daniel Handler who wrote the Lemony
Snicket books and novels on his

own, and he plays a good accordion.

Why I choose this as a very special
song is that I think it's a universal

song, but it's a universal song.

Of utter tenderness to
whoever it's addressed to.

It could be addressed to a lover, it
could be addressed to a dear friend,

it could be addressed to a dog.

It could certainly be, to a baby.

, And it's, it's just an
amazingly beautiful song.

Now, Stephen can be very cynical
and I don't think there's a cynical

moment in this song, which is not
necessarily to say that he's trying

to capture his own emotions, but
this is the kind of highest and most

beautiful love it seems to me, because.

While I think Steven would gag if I
said it was all about universal love.

It is a universal love song.

I seen you.

I seen

the.

I ever saw was you asleep and,

but it.

I love you too much.

The sweet.

You

came and

the.

Lovely song, and I noted the accordion
Accument, which when I first heard

it, I mistakenly thought might
have been a bagpipe, but he is very

eclectic in his instrumentation
according to Wikipedia as used.

Ukulele, banjo, accordion,
cello, mandolin, flute,

xylophone, and the Marx XPhone.

You were saying earlier that
there was a, , link to a composer.

You've written a lot about Virgil
Thompson that you hear in that song.

Yes.

, In his first opera with Gertrude Stein
and perhaps in the mother of us all,

which was also written with Gertrude
Stein, which was written in 1928

it's a legendary piece, and Virgil loves
consonants, so he uses the accordion

a lot and it takes on a sort of.

Breath in, breath out sort
of thing while staying very,

very simple in its harmonies.

And of course, that simplicity,
that pure unique love, , fits

with these lyrics perfectly.

And it's, it's just very beautiful and it
sounds a lot like it could have come from.

Either of the operas that Virgil
Thompson wrote with Gertrude Stein,

Well, you know, since your piece came
out in 2000, Stephen Merritt, true to

form, has done a lot of different things.

He's been in more groups.

One of them called the three Terrors,
not three tenors, but three terrors.

Good for him.

Written scores for movies
and several theater pieces.

He scored a silent film and wrote
a book called 101 Two Letter Words,

which is apparently poems based on
two letter words accepted by Scrabble.

So the man has a very fertile and active
imagination, and I, I, I think that's

great and that he has found a means
to explore his creativity and with.

A group of Ardent fans, you know, I don't
wanna overplay it, but compared to some

of the, the bad news that we have and
that we've been talking about in terms

of culture and other things as well,
I, I, I think it's, it's a good thing.

I do too.

I'm very grateful we have Steven around.

Well, . The next time you talk to him,
please tell him that he's got a new fan,

in his fan base as the sports writers say.

And, , I'll be listening for
his future contributions.

Well, Tim Page, it has been a delight
to have you, uh, thank you so much for

coming on to talk about Steven Merrit.

It's been a great joy.

Thank you so much, Ben.

We'll talk again soon, I hope.

Absolutely to be continued.

And now here's your
moment of Steven Merrit.

When I write about myself, I'm
generally so vague that you can't tell

if I'm writing about myself or not.

'cause it's the things that I
have in common with other people

that would be more interesting
for other people to hear about.

Whereas if I write about living on
a Tibetan Buddhist commune in the s.

I might be able to get one song
out of that, but not a whole lot.

I've written a few musicals, but
I've abandoned a whole lot more.

It's just fun to write in characters, uh,
the characters of people you haven't met.

Um, I often like to write in the character
of someone I have barely met, like someone

across the room who I'm just observing.

And I do a lot of eavesdropping so.

Uh, eavesdropping is a
major source of my dialogue.

I like, uh, gay bars with old
people in them during the daytime.

These are generally retired people
and they're, they have nothing better

to do than drink and gossip, and
so they're full of gossip, so it's

a great source of eavesdropping.

Thanks for listening, and
we'll see you next time.